Defy the Church
Posted on August 4th, 2008IF Fray Butod — the quintessential symbol of the patriarchal, despotic, conservative, reactionary and backward sector of religion usurping the title “The Church” – ordered me to go forth and multiply and reject birth control practices, shall I say amen?
If Fray Butod threatened me eternal damnation in hell or excommunication in life shall I cringe?
Before answering those queries, let’s journey back to the past. One conclusion we can glean from it is that humanity gained giant strides in all spheres of knowledge that translate to unprecedented progress.
Today, by tapping the keyboard or mouse of your PC, in matter of seconds we can communicate to people in different parts of the world, we can access information at such speed and efficiency never before imagined.
Humanity progressed not because of the conservative, patriarchal and reactionary faction of religion, most often its hierarchy and having the temerity to dub itself “The Church” – the world moved forward precisely despite it.
Stated otherwise, humanity progressed because of brave men and women who stood by their feet, who risked their lives to express and defend their creativity no-matter-what especially against the conservative sectors of society which sought not only to block them but to extirpate their very creators.
The Dark Ages happened because at some point, “The Church” not only frustrated human creativity through threats of eternal damnation but by the real violence of torching thinkers, scientists, medicine people, name-it, on the stakes for witchcraft and heresy. It is interesting to note that while scientists and thinkers burned on the stakes on the side of the world ruled by the “Holy Roman Empire,” while that part of the earth plunged to the Dark Ages, the other side, the one peopled by the Moors was enjoying the Golden Age where science, architecture, medicines, astronomy, engineering, math, culture, literature – thought and knowledge in general – flourished.
We advanced because of the likes Copernicus the monk who stood by his discovery that the world is round and a mere speck in the world not its center. We advanced because he dared defy the princes of the church who arrogated unto themselves the collective title “The Church” who were angered by his heresy.
We moved forward, not because of the church but despite it. And we owe it to the likes of the maverick Catholic cleric Martin Luther who defied the petrified, dogmatic and autocratic thought fiercely defended by the tiny sector of religion which arrogated unto itself the title “The Church.”
The defiance of the monk Luther spun a movement that led to the Reformation that opened the religious movements to fresh ideas that challenged the feudal and enslaving mode of thought championed by Scholasticism, the dominant philosophy of the time (and until today in the tiny segment of religion). We can also say that because of Luther, humanity was ushered into the Rennaisance that in turn paved the road toward liberal thought and more scientific discoveries.
All told, had it not been for the creative and valiant men and women of the past, humanity would not have reached where it is now.
We are no fan of the Garins but this time around we have to praise Rep. Janet Garin (1st district, Iloilo), a main sponsor of the Reproductive Health Bill that in the main empowers women to have control of their bodies.
Fray Butod and his ilk especially the reprehensible character Mike Velarde whose El Shaddai is no different from “charitable institutions” of the church, that is, profit-oriented – Fray Butod and his ilk are shouting themselves hoarse against the bill calling it “abortion bill.”
We wish Rep. Garin more courage to resist the hierarchs who don’t see and repent for their own shameless records and those of their gods like that unrepentant fan of Adolf Hitler who to date still speaks and acts like his idol.
I have spent eight years in the seminary, five years at St. Paul’s in Makati from first year high school to first year college, and the remaining three years in undergrad at the CICM Maryshore in Talisay, Negros Occidental.
One realization we got from that experience is that the Church, the real one that is, refers to people, the flock journeying toward the Kingdom. It is a movement more than a static mass, a dialectical one involving the tension of the present and the future.
What we have now is that the hierarchs tasked to lead the flock are stuck to the past and are blocking that movement or its eschatological direction.
The Philippines prides itself as the only Christian, Catholic for that matter, country in Asia, yet we are in the bottom of the pit of shame – the most corrupt in Asia, the most dangerous for journalists in the world next only to Iraq, the most backward in E Asia next only to Bangladesh.
And we have the highest figure in political killings, 900 innocent and the best lives in the country wasted since 2001. The tiny sector which arrogates unto itself the title “The church,” incidentally, is mum on all that and even openly colludes with the GMA regime that perpetrates them.
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August 5th, 2008 00:35
Your last 2 paragraphs sum-up the negative image of the Philippines here abroad. If Garin bill (HB 812) becomes Law, you are empowering the government with the “licence to kill” the unborn – called ABORTION. I don’t defy the teaching of the church because I have moral obligation not to. My religious upbringing gives me strength and courage to face life challenges here and the Philippines. My family suffered political oppression by the Garin Family in Guimbal for 25 years. I can forgive (as christian) but I won’t forget.
August 6th, 2008 02:09
it is negative image but its the truth and we dont need to deny it just for making our immage looks good. It reminds me of Imelda covering the squatters area with walls so that the tourists cannot see the stark reality of some Filipinos then.
I am not a lawyer, but Garin bill does not condone abortion but empower women to prevent pregnancy. The Catholic Church does not allow its faithful to practice artificial family practices, like condoms, IUD , bith control pills etc.
Dr. Gestosani, Did the Garins put your family down, or they just paid more in buying votes than your family ?
August 6th, 2008 23:45
I’m glad you’d asked.
Here’s the copy of my letter to Guardian Iloilo dated May 1, 2006, exactly one year after the death of my mother, the last of the Trono- Gestosani Family who served the people of Guimbal.
—————————————————————–
May 1, 2006
Voice Box
2007-05-05
By Dr. Antonio Gestosani
Ohio, USA
agestosani@zoominternet.net
May 1 is the first anniversary of the funeral of our beloved mother, Trinidad T. Gestosani, the former mayor of Guimbal.
She was the last person to carry the legacy of the Gimeno-Trono-Gestosani family to serve the people of Guimbal as mayor from 1968 to 1980. She died at the age 93.
The chronology of public service of the Gimeno – Trono – Gestosani Family dated back during the Spanish time:
1885 – 1886 Nicolas Gimeno Capitan
1906 – 1907 Salvador Trono (my grandfather) Mayor
1918 – 1920 Emilio Gimeno Mayor
1921 – 1926 Savador Trono Mayor
1952 – 1953 Vicente Gestosani (my father) Mayor
1968 – 1980 Trinidad Gestosani (my mother) Mayor
1953 – 1969 Dr. Pedro Trono (my uncle) Congressman
Family dynasty existed then and was the symbol of leadership and public service. Now, family dynasty is used for wrong reason.
I went home to see my mother for the last time. The wake was in the house for one week. Many friends and relatives came to offer their prayers and condolences to the family, and for that, I thank you sincerely from the bottom of my heart.
We decided to have a simple interment, having a mass for the final repose of her soul. My family decided for me to give eulogy and word of thanks to all.
Thank you Nanay for your guidance, for your sacrifices, and all the beautiful deeds you left behind for us to remember you by. We missed you.
Many noticed that even though my mother was a former mayor, her coffin did not have a Philippine flag draped over it. The truth of the matter is Mayor Richard Garin and the town council decided not to provide the flag after my family refused their offer to eulogize her during interment.
Why glorify her after her death. This is only exploitation for their political advantage (shame) while we are grieving.
Why can’t they forget politics during bereavement?
Why can’t they show respect for the dead?
My mother deserves the Philippine flag as recognition for her public service. Am I wrong? You be the judge.
My kasimanwa in Guimbal, the behavior of Richard Garin and the town council towards his political enemy (especially my family) cannot be tolerated and he must be held accountable.
I must confess that my family suffered enough during the 25 years of Garin political dominance in Guimbal.
It started in the 80’s when Ninfa was mayor and Oca was a congressman; they immediately changed the landscape of the Guimbal plaza by constructing a new municipal building in front of my mother’s house. She was deprived of an open space which she used to enjoy.
My friends come to my mother’s house and see for yourself. You are facing intramoros wall in front of the house. “Guin hingabot guid kami”.
What did she do deserve this? They just cannot accept the fact that one family opposes their view. We have our own principle, and we stand by what we believe is right (they cannot stomach it).
Then, they went after my brother’s small livelihood in Nanga. He could not renew his license to operate a small hatchery, and was forced to move his business to San Joaquin with the help of a relative. He tried many times to apply for mayor’s permit to reopen his hatchery business in Nanga but was constantly denied.
The claim that Guimbal is business friendly under Garin is a farce.
More hardships came six years ago when my brother challenged Richard Garin for Mayor of Guimbal. The power of eminent domain was served, forcing him to give-up his land to the government (political payback).This is an ultimate “abuse of power” under the smoke screen. This can happen to you and will cost you your fortune to defend your property (we did).
The latest news (during the Flores – Garin debate) that Janet Garin wants to build a hospital in San Joaquin is not only a duplication of hospital services in the 1st district, but also an ill-conceived plan to erase the Trono name in the history of Guimbal and eventually move the location of the hospital to San Joaquin (this is my gut-feeling).
Remember that Guimbal hospital is called: Dr. Pedro Trono Memorial Hospital. You see why they want to relocate the hospital? What a waste of taxpayer’s money for their self-serving political ambition.
My fellow Guimbaleños and people of the 1st district of Iloilo; I am speaking my heart when I say that enough is enough to this kind of oppressive behavior of one family that ruled 1st district (especially in Guimbal) with an iron fist.
I am therefore compelled to write to express my outrage to the pains and sufferings that my family has endured during the Garin political dominance in the 1st district of Iloilo, particularly in Guimbal.
May 14, 2007 is the time to end this regime. Bring back the legacy of Dr. Pedro G. Trono (your former congressman) – the true servant of the people of the 1st district of Iloilo.
Your vote for Gerry Flores for congressman is your voice to give your family and your children a better future under the new leadership. Good luck and God bless.
Regarding my self, I was born in Guimbal and left the Philippines in 1972. I am a US citizen, and a retired anesthesiologist living in Ohio, USA. I am married to a American girl, and we have three children. My life is here in the State, but my fascination is Philippine politics. Thank you and have a good day.
————————————————————-
Regarding the Reproductive Health Bill; any artificial contraceptive methods, either by pill or IUDs and etc.prevent pregnancy, and worse thing that could happen is to prevent implantation of the fertilized ovum in the uterus. If this is not abortion, then what?
The debate for this Bill scheduled tomorrow in Iloilo was cancelled by Cong. Janette Garin. Panay news (lapsus calami) mentioned that the proponent of this Bill was afraid to debate Ex. Senator Tatad.
You be the judge.
August 8th, 2008 21:59
Dr. Gestosani I salute you for opening the sad reality in Guimbal and what the Garins did to your family. Now the public knows.
Its my disdain for politicians that prompted me to ask.
The Garin family is now more than a dynasty, and it will be hard to topple them down. It will take a collective effort from all of us to say no to them.
But we got to find a way to stop the population growth in our country. The Catholic Church condones the natural method or the rhythm method, but we got to compromise more than this.
Again, count me on your side.
August 16th, 2008 10:50
You have a collective effort to elect or reject a politician called-election. Did it work? Personally, it did not work in the 1st District particularly in Guimbal; the Garin Family knows it, and they manipulate the system for 25 years. Regime-change is possible if that collective effort is the voice for change, and yes you can.
October 16th, 2008 07:20
Greetings to my fellow Ilonggos…
I have to admit that I stumbled upon this interesting article in the middle of my shift in a call center. Although surfing the internet is a direct no-no in our line of work, I can’t help but be moved by the exchange of ideas over this web post.
Im afraid I am not as well-versed or well-informed with the details (e.g. Reproductive Health Bill, Guimbal’s Political History) and I request for patience in this aspect. There are a couple of points that I would like to share.
Both the institution of government and church are the same in construction. Both have hierachy and both started with the noblest of intentions and idealogies. In my premature opinion as well, both institutions have been corrupted thru the diiferent demands of the people that has lead it.
I am a mother, and had my child when I was very young. Also that I studied in an all-girl catholic school for the first 13 years of my life. I have my faith intact and I still believe in the doctrines of the Church, specifically the better ones. the ones that does not interfere with our God-given free will and judgement. In the account of the government passing a bill to support Reproductive Health, misunderstanding the very essence of the bill using Church doctrines are vere needless to say, stupid. As the title explains itself, its for the Reproductive Health- physically, mentally and spiritual make up of the being. Having children or reproducing entails a lot of responsibility. And while the government recognizes that over-population is detrimental to our society, it does not coequivocally entails termination of life. Perception of the majority that it suggests ABORTION is a complete misunderstanding of the point of this bill. It is BOTH putting the government’s and church’s intentions wrong.
several points that was raised in the said article is that we are a Catholic country. True.
It is also true that we are a civilized country as well. True again.
I personally believe that Filipinos are far more comprehensive and intelligent than with our neighboring asian countries. Forgive the patriotism, but that is my personal biase on the matter.
What am saying in general, is that we have our moral compass intact. In the very same way that we are well educated to differentiate what is good and what is right.
There is NO point of argument here. Its a mere check of intentions and the capacity to enforce what is neccessary for our survival. As a community, we have to recognize that over-population is a problem for our government and people. As Christians, we have the moral obligation to provide our next generation with the best possible future. In spirit and in the daily hustles in Life.
If both our Government leaders and Church leaders would recognize this, then this argument would no longer be necessary. We are a Community. In Government and in Faith.
Thank you for making time to read my comment. I dont know if i have properly conveyed my thoughts but then again, thank you for bearing with it.
October 27th, 2009 23:57
A reply to Doc:
Mayor Richard Garin and the town council refused to provide your family a Philippine flag? Memory gap, Doc? Councilor Romy Gonzales went to your house to inform your family that Mayor Richard Garin wanted to have your mother’s wake at the Municipal Hall. That was refused. Then, it was proposed that a necrological service be held by the Municipal Government of Guimbal in honor of your mother, herself a former Municipal Mayor. That was also refused. How many offers can you refuse? Was your family offered a flag? Was that offer refused? If none was offered, why didn’t you just buy one? Who would have prevented you?
You are fascinated by Philippine politics? No wonder your comments border on the ludicrous. A fascination is seldom fully comprehended, much more imbibed. Please grow up. Seen a Jeff Dunham show lately? If you did, you could not have missed Walter saying “I think you should listen from the other side.” Arielle, too. And now the public knows that.
Relocate the hospital? You are NUTS! The Dr. Pedro Trono Memorial Hospital is owned by the PROVINCIAL Government. How in Barrack Obama’s name can the MUNICIPAL Government relocate that?
“Intramoros” in front of your house? Meaning, outside your premises? What in heaven’s name is wrong with that? You have a brother who is a lawyer. You should ask him. He will tell you outright it’s none of your friggin’ business.
Why can’t they forget politics during your bereavement? Why, did YOU forget politics during your bereavement? To quote Arielle: Now, the public knows that.
It’s nice to know that you stand by what you believe is right. LOSERS stand by what they BELIEVE is right. The winners endeavor to discover what is right. After that, they stand by it. There’s the difference.
Cong. Garin wants to build a hospital in San Joaquin which will only duplicate the health services of the Dr. Pedro Trono Memorial Hospital? That’s a novel argument. Please fill in the blanks: the total bed capacity of Dr. Pedro Trono Memorial Hospital is ___ beds. The total population of the 1st District of Iloilo is ____ residents. The travel time from Brgy. Igpayong, San Joaquin to Guimbal is _____ hours. Know the answers and realize that you have your foot in your mouth.
Any method to prevent CONCEPTION is abortion? An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, resulting in or caused by its death. Now this: “There are three main routes to preventing or ending pregnancy: the prevention of fertilization of the ovum by sperm cells (“contraception”), the prevention of implantation of the blastocyst (“contragestion”), and the chemical or surgical induction of abortion of the developing embryo or, later, foetus. In common usage, term “contraception” is often used for both contraception and contragestion.” Did you get that okay, DOCTOR?
Cong. Janette Garin is afraid to debate Ex. Sen. Tatad on the Reproductive Health Bill? Boy, you really missed a lot lately. Try monitoring ANC at the TFC feeds which is most probably available in Ohio. They might air some replays. You might be able to catch how Cong. Garin “kicks some ass” vis a vis these pseudo-intellectuals. If you’re lucky you may also see how the show anchors almost die laughing at the opponent’s “novel” views, such as “RH Bill is an international conspiracy to eradicate Third World countries’ entire population”, or “zero or negative population growth is BAD for a country. Look at JAPAN.”
Have a nice day.
October 28th, 2009 21:25
For Dawn:
DISAGREE: “Both the institution of government and church are the same in construction.” Church and Government have different constitutions. Leaders of government are elected. Church leaders are not. That’s why oftentimes, government leaders are more sensitive and sensible than their church counterparts.
AGREE: “both institutions have been corrupted thru the different demands of the people that has lead it.”
CONGRATS: “…I studied in an all-girl catholic school for the first 13 years of my life. I have my faith intact and I still believe in the doctrines of the Church, specifically the better ones.” YOU SURVIVED CATHOLIC SCHOOL
AGREE: “misunderstanding the very essence of the bill using Church doctrines are vere needless to say, stupid.” WHAT YOU REALLY MEAN IS DELIBERATELY “MISUNDERSTANDING” CHURCH DOCTRINES. Me thinks Responsible Parenthood is a very Christian VIRTUE.
DISAGREE: “It is also true that we are a civilized country as well. True again.” Arnold Toynbee once said that SHAME is one hallmark of civilization. The diehard opponents of the RH Bill will shove into you the idea that it is shameful to use contraceptives (you will go to hell). What they don’t tell you is that it is more shameful to abscond from your parental obligations.
AGREE: “we have to recognize that over-population is a problem for our government and people.” But smaller population means lesser churchgoers. There will be less “souls” to collect, er, save, that is.
AN ANECDOTE: My wife once returned a wallet full of cash to its rightful owner. We did not even bother to count the cash contents because it’s not ours in the first place. In our routine grocery purchases my wife always makes it a point to return excess change (at least two cashiers at The Atrium can attest to that). Now, will she go to hell because she is taking birth control pills?
LASTLY: “Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6″ I MIGHT ASK: Can a parent probably train twelve children in the way they should go without letting them go hungry? I would welcome a comment from Sen. Tatad or Dr. Gestosani. I might just be wrong…
October 28th, 2009 21:51
Good Day Taga Guimbal.
I will keep my reply short. First of all, let’s not forget the Ten Commandments that God gave us as list of moral standards to which we can base our life and morals.
“And God spoke all these words, saying: ‘I am the LORD your God…
ONE: ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’
TWO: ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.’
THREE: ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.’
FOUR: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.’
FIVE: ‘Honor your father and your mother.’
SIX: ‘You shall not murder.’
SEVEN: ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
EIGHT: ‘You shall not steal.’
NINE: ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.’
TEN: ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.’
How many of these rules you and your family are guilty with? Had you and your family followed these rules, then we live in harmony and nobody got hurt.
It’s insulting, to say the least, that you blame us of your deplorable behavior not to honor my mother’s public service. She owes it from you and not from us. Please remember, we did not hurt you or your family during my family’s political career. We just stood by our principle and that is why we belong to different political faction. Your political vendetta was out of control. This is why I came out to open my grievances and frustrations. Thanks to Iloilo VIews.
This coming election is a test of a person’s character against power and greed. Ilonggos are frustrated and feed-up with corruptions and abuses of greedy politicians. They will now vote for the right persons. I wish you luck!
October 29th, 2009 23:24
Reply to Doc:
“How many of these rules you and your family are guilty with? ” (You presume too much. Me, I’m a Baptist who has been raised to DISCERN right from wrong)
“It’s insulting, to say the least, that you blame us of your deplorable behavior not to honor my mother’s public service.” (I’m sorry, but I might just have missed what it is you REALLY mean.)
“Please remember, we did not hurt you or your family during my family’s political career.” (I still remember what my late father told me: “Never vote for Maceda. That sob wanted to transfer me to Mindanao upon behest of Trono because I will not support him)
“Your political vendetta was out of control.” (MY political vendetta? He he he! You missed again.)
Lastly” “Do not do unto others what you don’t want others to do unto you.” A bible verse? No. It was Confucius who first said that, about 1,000 years before the bible came into being.
Learn.
October 29th, 2009 23:54
For Arielle:
Your comment:”Dr. Gestosani I salute you for opening the sad reality in Guimbal and what the Garins did to your family. Now the public knows.
Its my disdain for politicians that prompted me to ask.
The Garin family is now more than a dynasty, and it will be hard to topple them down. It will take a collective effort from all of us to say no to them.” reminds me of someone who killed himself by intentionally falling off a cliff– He jumped to a conclusion.
Most people stand by what they BELIEVE is true. The better view is endeavor to KNOW what is true.
Just a nugget of wisdom. And it’s free.
By the way: I totally agree with your stand on the RH Bill. I am a father of two kids, 13 and 5 years old, respectively. My wife and I are both employed but our daily challenge is how to have enough resources (time and money) so that these kids might be given a chance to chart their own destiny.
Good day.
October 30th, 2009 08:01
My apology to Taga Guimbal if I mistook your identity. The contents of your writings proved my point that you are the one, and that prompted me to react also.
You’re like an actor who knew the script real well to make his audience thrilled. At the end of the show, we want your identity revealed.
I want to thank Ariel for being understanding and courageous enough to express her views. I’m at your side also.
Some people, you know, cannot take criticism, and they take it the hard way, and they become very defensive and sometime very offensive. They need “cool-aid” drink and take the heat.
October 30th, 2009 22:10
I maybe yong tagaGuimbal but I am not naive.
The Garins just like the Tupas, the Binays, the estradas, are political dynasty build upon sound and political savy and excellent political investments.
I may jump into conclusion about Garins vs Gestosanis, but it will not sway me from concluding that the Garins are no saints either. Without vote buying in the past, they probably be a different story today.
If Oca Garin for that matter or any politician would look into the eye of any young child, and swear I do not buy votes
I became who I am because you voted for me whole heartedly or because of my credentials, then I would hurrah to all the gods we can think about.
I just want all of us to stop pretending that there is no vote buying. Period.
November 3rd, 2009 22:40
To Taga Guimbal: Who are you? You said you went to all girls catholic school for 13 years; next you said, you have a wife and children ages 13 and 5. I’m confused! How credible you are? Just asking.
To the people of Guimbal: Our public service is over. My family (Trono and Gestosani) thank you for allowing us to serve you. The rest will be history.
Just a matter of resolution to taga Guimbal’s accusation:
First: my family donated lands during their political career. Camangahan Elementary School and Naga Elementary School.
Second: Our refusal to Richard Garins’s offer to eulogize my mother is personal. Do you really expect us to listen to your lies?
Third: Stop the political vendetta anymore. Leave my family alone in Guimbal.
Thanks again to Iloilo Views.
November 4th, 2009 10:31
Vote buying is rampant in the first district, and they were institutionalized by the Garins. After asphalting and cementing the road to Igbaras in 1987, they did nothing more and now the roads are in their worst situation again. All the money for roads and constructions, they are reserving it for the elections where the fools of the first district can avail of 500 hundred pesos and splurge it in beer, and on the next day, they will again wait for another three years of misrule and corruption.
November 4th, 2009 13:40
arielle,
You are not only young but naive as well if you think that vote buying is an exception rahter than the rule in RP politics. Look around you and open your eyes. Even votes for SK candidates are bought, be it in cash or in kind.
November 5th, 2009 21:37
We need more concerned ilonggo like you Arielle. Your views regarding patronage politics and money-driven politics in Philippine politics is very disturbing and needs immediate attention.
Politicians enter politics with one reason only:to make money and use that money to stay in power. That is why family dynasty reigns in Philippine politics, because it is lucrative business, and they use OPM (others peoples’ money) to stay in power and enjoy all the perks of the so called “elected officials”. Really?
It is no brainier to connect the dots in Philippine politics. Go figure, my friends.
November 6th, 2009 15:19
Reply to Arielle:
It was not my intention to harp on your supposedly being “naive” as you would like to believe. I was reacting to your “realization” of the “sad reality in Guimbal” and “what the Garins did to the Gestosanis.” The reason? If you’re a Guimbalanon, then you’ve been hanging out with the wrong crowd for you come up with such a licentious conclusion. If you’re not Guimbalanon, it is your DUTY to first ascertain the truth before you opine. It’s that simple.
Now, if your gripe, in fact, is the “vote buying” go ahead, girl. I trust you have personal knowledge of that, not to mention that you fully understand what “buying” means. As for me, I will keep my mouth shut because I have no knowledge of facts about that. I know exactly what “buying” means, though. It is taking ownership/possession of something which is NOT yours after payment of the agreed consideration. The Civil Code provisions on Sales would more or less prove that definition correct. Simply put, ONE CANNOT BUY WHAT IS ALREADY HIS. Capish?
November 6th, 2009 15:35
Reply to Doc:
You are confused about my views? I agree. That happens when too much of everything get in the way of cold, impartial analysis and sound reason. And I’m not talking about me.
I finished 13 years of catholic school? He he he. I think it was Dawn Zaldivar (her post dated Oct. 16 is near yours) who survived that, not me. I’m a BAPTIST, in the first place. My enrollment in catholic high school would be as natural as Osama Bin Laden cozying up with George Bush.
November 6th, 2009 15:39
Another Reply to Doc:
Your family donated lots for Camangahan and Nanga schools? That’s good. Now, we can agree that PRIVATE PROPERTY HAS A SOCIAL FUNCTION. That would probably put an end to the “political persecution” routine of yours.
Do you really believe that “Politicians enter politics with one reason only:to make money and use that money to stay in power”? Well this is from your post:
1885 – 1886 Nicolas Gimeno Capitan
1906 – 1907 Salvador Trono (my grandfather) Mayor
1918 – 1920 Emilio Gimeno Mayor
1921 – 1926 Savador Trono Mayor
1952 – 1953 Vicente Gestosani (my father) Mayor
1968 – 1980 Trinidad Gestosani (my mother) Mayor
1953 – 1969 Dr. Pedro Trono (my uncle) Congressman
That the problem with you, Doc. You have too much in your head. That results to a “foot in the mouth” disease.
November 6th, 2009 19:05
reply to rony:
your statement that “After asphalting and cementing the road to Igbaras in 1987, they did nothing more and now the roads are in their worst situation again” makes me think that you are either:
1. Blind, or
2. From Cabatuan
My advice: open your eyes before you open your mouth
November 6th, 2009 19:37
Final Word To Doc, Arielle and Rony:
I won’t be surprised if you do NOT to like my comments. As they say, a person will always hate something he fears and he fears something he does not understand.
Have a nice day.
November 6th, 2009 20:49
Well, thanks to Iloilo Views and the Internet because without this media outlet nobody will know how how you get your billions and how my family suffered under your clawed-hands.
Let’s just end this saga, to say that the chronology of the Trono-Gestosani public service to Guimbal was not driven by money or ambition or greed. We did not profit from politics.
Thanks to Iloilo Views and the internet. Now we can express our views and have a “descent” debates (without insult and profanity) in the tip of our fingers.
November 7th, 2009 08:21
Reply to Doc:
My closing statement would be:
1. Prudence and good taste requires that conclusions are based on facts, not presumptions.
2. All persons, the Gestosanis, the Garins and Taga Guimbal included, are not entirely bad, nor are they entirely good. What counts is that credit is given and rebuke is passed upon, only after facts are ascertained.
3. Your refusal to have a necrological service because the Garins might lie is not correct. A lie does not become a lie unless it is told. Hence, no necro, no lie.
4. I have been, as a rule, temperate in my language and demeanor. I become intemperate only when I confront two things: lies and stupidity.
5. I was once the Team Captain of the Debating Team of our University and earned a college scholarship on that account. I am well at ease with DECENT debates.
6. My friend from L. A tells me “Profanity hurts when it is true, when it is not, it is a compliment.”
Have a nice day.
November 7th, 2009 08:36
This, I forgot:
2,500 years ago, Sun Tzu said: “Know your enemy so that you might defeat him.”
Today I say: Know that your enemy is ignorance and stupidity. Defeat them by having an open mind and the humility to accept that you misconstrued facts. Only then can you defeat all your other enemies.
November 7th, 2009 09:00
Believe it or not I like your comments, i am not totally against the Garins, i like the current congresswoman for her brave stance against over population in the Philippines. What i don’t like only is the road going to igbaras, she should repair it. Maybe writing in Igbaras Views will convince her. Congresswoman Garin should be congratulated for standing firm that the population growth in the country should be addresed properly. That she could do this and stand by her conscience is good enough for me, but tell her to repair the road Igbaras Guimbal.
November 7th, 2009 11:24
I will end with this quotation:
“Never say anything to hurt anyone. Moreover… refrain from double talk, from shrewd and canny remarks that are designed to advance our interests at someones disadvantage. We are to turn our back upon evil, and in every way possible, do good, help people and bring blessings into their lives.”
Peace to you, whoever you are.
November 7th, 2009 19:22
To Rony:
Your comment is well taken. If you can give me your email address, I’ll give you the email address of Congw. Garin’s office. Through that, you can directly convey your views to her. She usually responds to requests and inquiries from constituents.
Best of luck.
November 9th, 2009 07:51
Hopefully, Doc, this will be the last word:
1. “My son, preserve sound judgment and discernment, do not let them out of your sight” Proverbs 3:21
2.”A rebuke impresses a man of discernment more than a hundred lashes a fool” Proverbs 17:10
3. “A rich man may be wise in his own eyes but a poor man with discernment see through him.” Proverbs 28:11
4. “A man who knows nothing. He thinks he knows everything. That explains his fascination for politics.” George Bernard Shaw
5.”One of the greatest fallacies in this world is that wealth begets wisdom” Anonymous
6. “If you think prudence and discernment hurt, try ignorance and stupidity instead.” Taga Guimbal
November 10th, 2009 21:21
Well, Taga Guimbal, you just cannot put this saga to rest in peace. You don’t have to prove your self, we know. Don’t let others used you as the “Attack-Dog”, stay as the “Lap-Dog” of the Garins. A person can lie and lie and lie so much that that he believes he is telling the truth, and this called: mind conditioning, a product of a sick mind.
November 11th, 2009 03:10
Taga guimbal, I hope you are practicing your words in your daily living. It is very impressive but if it is all words and your action is the opposite then it is called hypocracy.
I am not fun of the Garins. I find their comments disrespectul to the voters especially those who are beneath them. Yes it is true that they have the money but not everyone can be bought. There are some of us who are capable to chose who the right person for the job. So pls. let the Garins know that there are some Igbarasnon that are not interested with their money and cannot be bought.
Though I am not a Garin follower I agree with Congresswoman Garin in her stand of controlling our population.
November 11th, 2009 03:14
I meant, I agree with congresswoman Garin in her stand of controlling our population growth. Thank you.
November 11th, 2009 12:06
Doc:
1. I AM AN ATTACK DOG. I readily attack stupidity because it hinders progress, which can be realized only with CRITICAL THINKING.
2. Read English history. How many centuries did England transform itself from an absolute monarchy to a republican democracy? Was the Industrial Revolution ushered in by a monarchy or a democracy?
What transformed England from Monarchy to Democracy? Read history. Find out who taught the English to get rid of their stupidity.
2. Read French History. Find out the the seige of Bastille showed that the French became acquainted with common sense which according to another Frenchman, “is not always common.”
3. Read American history. Find out why the 1787 Constitution needed 27 amendments to effect a more perfect union.
4. I AM A LAPDOG? Do you recall who said he wanted a decent debate?
5. YOU DON’T LIKE MY POSTS? That’s your problem. Me, I am comfortable with the idea that “I might not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Simply put, in a democracy, you have the right to be wrong. Gets mo?
6.A SICK MIND? I agree. There is a sick mind somewhere here. I knew of that last November 6. It’s that person who, after referring to some persons in unsavory terms and got his comeuppance, now wanted a “descent” (sic) debate.
7. I CANNOT PUT AN END TO THIS BROUHAHA? Well, the truth is, everytime I try to put an end to this, you keep RE-STARTING it. The mechanics of the right to reply dictate that I should have the last word. Gets mo?
November 11th, 2009 13:13
Reply to Josefa:
1. You are impressed? We should meet. We can talk for hours about this “impression” of yours. Post your email. I’ll send you mine.
2. Hypocracy? That’s one of my pet peeves. As I rule, I do not respond to invitations for fiesta, weddings, birthdays, baptisms, etc. because, yes, you cannot avoid but see hypocracy staring right in your face.
3. I cannot comment whether or not I am fond (not fun) of the Garins. Go back to my previous posts. You will find out that I am not for the Garins; neither am I against the Gestosanis. I am for sanity, common sense and reason. If that escapes your understanding, I understand. Most Filipinos are emotional and, therefore, personal, most of the time. At other times, they watch tele-novelas.
4. Not everyone can be bought? I doubt your definition of “buying”. Go back to my previous posts and look up my definition of “buying” and if you agree, we can talk. If you don’t agree, we can always agree to disagree.
5. You are right. The stand of Congw. Garin vis a vis population control is the CORRECT view. The problem is, the Catholic Church does not want something that is RIGHT, it wants something that is GOOD. Good for whom or good for what, I don’t know. What I’m sure is that I might be good at posting these ideas but I don’t get paid for it. That makes me GOOD FOR NOTHING.
Have a nice day.
P. S. Do you really believe Doc’s theory that I am a Garin “lap dog”? Well, I can’t blame you. Most people really speak out first and verify the facts later. When I tell my clients to STOP, THINK, ANALYZE AND SPEAK, they give me dagger looks.
November 11th, 2009 13:52
Dr. Gestosani,
The ignorant if properly taught get rid of their ignorance. Your problem is not one of ignorance, it is arrogance. You are arrogantly presumptuous and, when confronted with reason, you arrogantly shirk away from addressing the argument head-on and resort to argumentum ad hominem.
Examples:
1. You said: “Why can’t they forget politics during bereavement?”
I said: “Why, did you forget politics during your own bereavement?”
YOU DID NOT ADDRESS THIS ISSUE; YOU DID NOT ANSWER A DIRECT QUESTION. Therefore, you are arrogant.
2. You said: “Remember that Guimbal hospital is called: Dr. Pedro Trono Memorial Hospital. You see why they want to relocate the hospital?”
I said: “Relocate the hospital? You are NUTS! The Dr. Pedro Trono Memorial Hospital is owned by the PROVINCIAL Government. How in Barrack Obama’s name can the MUNICIPAL Government relocate that?”
YOU DID NOT ADDRESS THIS ISSUE; YOU DID NOT ANSWER A DIRECT QUESTION. Therefore, you are arrogant.
3. You said: “To Taga Guimbal: Who are you? You said you went to all girls catholic school for 13 years; next you said, you have a wife and children ages 13 and 5. I’m confused! How credible you are? Just asking.”
I said: “I finished 13 years of catholic school? He he he. I think it was Dawn Zaldivar (her post dated Oct. 16 is near yours) who survived that, not me. I’m a BAPTIST, in the first place. My enrollment in catholic high school would be as natural as Osama Bin Laden cozying up with George Bush.” Then, what? You skirted this issue. It’s arrogance.
4. I SAID: “All persons, the Gestosanis, the Garins and Taga Guimbal included, are not entirely bad, nor are they entirely good. What counts is that credit is given and rebuke is passed upon, only after facts are ascertained.”
YOU SAID: “You don’t have to prove your self, we know. Don’t let others used you as the “Attack-Dog”, stay as the “Lap-Dog” of the Garins. A person can lie and lie and lie so much that that he believes he is telling the truth, and this called: mind conditioning, a product of a sick mind.”
My conclusion: If you were a professional in the midst of a terribly hectic routine, I’d tell you to get it all over with and go on a vacation. But if you’re not, well, that requires a professional.
Bottomline: If you want this to end, let me have the last word, OR post a reply without any shade of ARROGANCE and HYPOCRISY (or, “hypocracy” as Josefa would want it).
November 11th, 2009 14:57
To Pet Melliza:
I do not want to sound patronizing but your article is a voice of reason which is not lost in a din of hoarse idiocy.
I totally agree with your statement that :”And we have the highest figure in political killings, 900 innocent and the best lives in the country wasted since 2001. The tiny sector which arrogates unto itself the title “The church,” incidentally, is mum on all that”. I have this inkling that these victims and their killers do not go to church and are, therefore, outside of the Church’s radar. So, what gives? (Please don’t get me wrong. I really mean what gives. I do not mean that these people don’t give to the Church and are therefore not its concern)
You said:”One conclusion we can glean from it is that humanity gained giant strides in all spheres of knowledge that translate to unprecedented progress.” Again, I agree. What the Catholic Church can’t put up with is that man has progressed because he asked questions and searched for answers.
You also said:”We are no fan of the Garins but this time around we have to praise Rep. Janet Garin (1st district, Iloilo), a main sponsor of the Reproductive Health Bill that in the main empowers women to have control of their bodies.” Count me in. I am nobody’s fan but I really appreciate common sense, candor and strength of character.
My wife and I are professionals, living with our modest salaries and we both realize that our two children are our hope for the future but WE ARE THEIR ONLY HOPE FOR THEIR PRESENT AND THEIR FUTURE.
We hope that the Catholic Church would at least TOLERATE those who adhere to the wisdom of responsible parenthood, in the same manner that it tolerates gambling money to get into its coffers in the form of “contributions to charitable missions.” By the way is that contribution the same as “indulgencia”? It’s for my education. You see, I’m not catholic.
More power to you.
November 12th, 2009 20:58
to taga guimbal:
i am an atheist now.
i spent 8 years in the seminary only to find in the end that god has been created according to man’s image and likeness.
you witness the piety of the likes of virginia palanca-santiago and libat uno and libat dos (aside from the perpetual bar flunker and the reverend gorilla, pillars of the graft busting club), you will automatically conclude that god is an idiot
November 12th, 2009 23:16
To Pet Melliza:
I have been raised by my Lola in the words of the Bible but I am a libertarian (at least, I think I am) and I respect your belief.
I agree– Man seems to have created God in his image. Just the same, I believe that the ever-present humanity (or humaneness) in man may be probably be overridden by his needs, but not his greed. I am saddened that in the present setting, the line between needs, wants and greed has become virtually inexistent to most.
November 13th, 2009 10:31
Taga Guimbal,
Pardon my spelling. I am not as smart and a professional like you. I learned English the way people pronounce the words. When playing the piano I play by listening and not by reading the notes. A professional pianist may critic that I am playing the wrong notes but hey at least I try my best the way I know how.
What is the correct word then when a political candidate gives you money in exchange for your vote? My simple brain call it vote buying. Personally, I experienced and was offered cash for my vote which I refused. Thanks God I am in a position to say NO. Vote buying is not a hearsay or a tele novela. This is real and must be address for the future of the next generation. This is what I believe and if you disagree it is okay by me.
You must have contact with the Garins. You told Rony that you can give him the email address of congresswoman Garin. That is why I requested you to deliver my message that not all Igbarasnon are for sale. I was greatly insulted when I heard him said that. If you cannot it is okay. Thanks anyway.
I am catholic and supporting Rep. Janet Garin in her stand means I am defying my religion. Having children that we cannot feed is more sinful as far as I am concern.
November 14th, 2009 00:10
To Taga Guimbal, I’m not used to mudslinging nor I’ll be coerced to use profanity in my language. I was brought-up a decent (pardon my spelling if I forgot to edit) person and very catholic.
I’m concern about you because somebody is just using you as a decoy, so that I’ll aim my target on you and not them. A diversionary tactics by the Garins, so we can exchange punches while they are being entertained by us. You are smarter than the 5Th grader to understand their real motive in paying you big bucks to protect their interest and hide their dirt. Money works for them.
Greetings from Las Vegas. Here’s my prediction: although Cotto has weight advantage with power punch and defending welterweight champion, Pacquiao will prove to him that he’s not underdog nor a lap-dog but a real attack dog. A pit-bull of Filipino Boxers. Go Many Go!
November 14th, 2009 20:14
Doc:
I realize you’re impossible to put up with, for a very simple reason: You do not appreciate reason. The people you cannot contend with in a rational debate, you call them lapdogs. The people you cannot conquer, you call them corrupt. What do you call your patients you cannot cure? Unfortunate?
You should be concerned about me. I will always cry out for reason in the midst of your irrationality; I will expose your pretensions with a phalanx of truth. I will crack your cocoon of self-righteousness with the crowbar of your own frailties. And if it cannot be done with a crowbar, I’ll do it with a jackhammer.
This “lapdog” was in EDSA in 1986. That experience taught me that you cannot fight money with more money, you cannot fight corruption with self-righteousness. The only way to defeat money and corruption in the political arena is to have a better idea and live a better example. Have you done that? No. Will you do that? I bet no. You are more of talker than a doer. What can be expected of you other than saliva today and more saliva tomorrow. And then, another barrage of Garin bashing after they win in 2010. How miserable.
Stop talking and start doing.
November 14th, 2009 20:36
Josefa:
Did Congresswoman Garin publicly declare that the votes of all Igbarasnons are for sale? When and where did that happen?
I will not contact the Garins about your gripe because: 1. AS OF TODAY, I have yet not ascertained the facts; 2. Hindi kami close; 3. I am nobody’s messenger (meaning, I not am into peddling hearsays) 4. It will not give anybody a safe passage to heaven. In short, it will amount to nothing.
When a candidate gives money to a voter SO THAT the latter will vote for him, that is vote-buying. Reason: To have what you don’t have, you buy.
When a candidate gives a voter money BECAUSE the latter will vote for him, that is NOT vote-buying. Reason: You cannot buy what you already have.
Anyway, that is my opinion. I always welcome a BETTER opinion.
November 16th, 2009 07:11
I am working in Italy as a caregiver to a very wealthy family. They own a jewelry business all over Europe , a 17th century flat in Rome, a vineyard in Tuscany, summer house in Positano and a chalet in the Swiss Alps. Never did they laugh nor making fun of my English and my Italian. They know that their wealth came from hardwork, common sense and knowing the arithmetic. It is sad knowing that some people still think that having a higher command of English make them superior to those with inferior knowledge. TagaGuimbal perhaps excel in English ( computer can edit spelling and grammar at a tip of our finger.) insulting Josefa because of her spelling and grammar makes him in my opinion a narrow minded being.
November 16th, 2009 07:42
Pet,
God is not an idiot. He created man according to his likeness and give them conscience to what road they want to follow. Unfortunately some like Virginia Santiago chose the road of darkness and that makes her an idiot.
November 17th, 2009 00:07
To Veronica:
If you think my take on Josefa is her English, you might have to read and re-read all my posts again. Then maybe we can indulge in a reasonably comprehensible discussion.
(This has been my gripe since Day 1. People always tend to talk before they think)
November 17th, 2009 00:51
Veronica:
Let me simplify things for you:
Josefa said: “I hope you are practicing your words in your daily living. It is very impressive but IF it is all words and your action is the opposite then it is called hypocracy.”
My take is: It is not correct to make a factual conclusion out of the word “IF”. This is not a matter of English; this a matter of logic and common sense, just like the common sense your employers have. It is not even a question of whether I am a hypocrite or not. My citation of the wrong spelling is my way of reminding her to keep an open mind because after all, she could be factually wrong, in the same manner that I am keeping an open mind that I could also be wrong.
Another example. You said: “TagaGuimbal perhaps excel in English ( computer can edit spelling and grammar at a tip of our finger.)”
This is yet again another error. It makes a factual conclusion of a mere supposition, as you are supposing that I edit my posts with computer spellcheck, yet you are stating it as a conclusion. That is the problem I want to point out. To repeat, it is a question of having an open mind, and not really one can have a good command of English by using a computer spellcheck.
You are of the impression that I insulted Josefa. That is not correct. I am a gentleman and I do not hurt somebody’s feelings UNINTENTIONALLY. Please read all my posts and find out how gentleman I am.
You also might have overlooked that I agreed with Josefa on a point, thus: “5. You are right. The stand of Congw. Garin vis a vis population control is the CORRECT view. The problem is, the Catholic Church does not want something that is RIGHT, it wants something that is GOOD. Good for whom or good for what, I don’t know. ”
You might have been spending too much time on tele-novelas. Why not try Discovery or History Channel? It’s a good way to grow up.
“Every one speaks well of his own heart, but no one dares speak well of his own mind.” François, Duc De La Rochefoucauld (1613-1680), French writer, moralist
November 17th, 2009 08:23
Listen Taga Guimbal, I won’t sit here in front of my computer while you are wagging your accusing fingers to me, Josefa, Veronica and others who wants to criticize your demeanor. Wag your tail instead to serve your master.
I don’t know who you are, and I don’t know how much you’d get paid to be very protective and act like a mad-dog.
You seem well educated and talented. Use that attributes from God to further your self. Get another job where you answer to no one. Better still, go out on retirement (like me) and enjoy life. Remember: life is short. And stop being pretentious of being Mr. Right by quoting all those borrowed proverbs to scold us.
I praise Veronica for very sympathetic to Josefa. Veronica enjoy Italy. Tuscany is beautiful. I was there to enjoy the wine tasting and observe olive oil factory. Salut!
November 17th, 2009 09:14
I can’t help but notice your skirmishes guys. I think Taga Guimbal uses a lot of sarcasm in his comments but he has a point: a public comment must be made after a mature analysis.
Anyway, just get on with your business. I like to keep track of these. It adds to my wisdom. And it’s free. Wala’ng ganyan sa States.
November 18th, 2009 13:05
I’m a fan of Taga Guimbal too. I come here more just to see if he has a new post. I like his arguments and he was not disrespectful at all, just a little sarcastic at times.
November 18th, 2009 15:16
Interesting thread you have here. Anyways, I think that the author of the original article never imagined that his article will create an off-shoot comprised of witty and not-so-witty remarks. At the very least, this thread shows that freedom of expression still reigns supreme.
I cannot comment on the merits of the issue, as I am not privy to them. What I will comment on is the defective reasoning relied upon by a party and hopefully, readers of the thread will gain insight as to why his message falls flat and crumbles at the counter arguments of the other.
We have a fallacy in reasoning called “begging the question” This is erroneous because this kind of reasoning presupposes that a premise is outright conclusive. In other words, the initial premise is treated as already proven without any logic as to why it was true. As such, the eventual conclusion is fatally defective as it is similar to the proverbial “house built on sand”.
An example of this argument would be:
Juan: “You are wrong!”
Pedro: “Why am I wrong?”
Juan: “Because you are not right!”
Borrowing from the flow of arguments thrown in this thread, the classic fallacy would be:
“A” buys votes. —— First premise (which is not proven)
“A” won the election. —— Second premise (which is true)
“A” won the election because of vote-buying. —— Erroneous Conclusion.
To the followers of the thread. again I am asserting that I will not discuss on the merits of the issues raised. Or at the very least, not yet. What I am saying is that you be the judge as to who among the contenders present the more cogent arguments.
If there is one thing that we cannot negate, it is the fact that the contenders are very passionate with their sides. That deserves admiration.
November 18th, 2009 16:34
Doc:
Your point is very well taken. You do not like my demeanor. I’m sorry. That trait will have to go. Thanks for straightening me out.
But PLEASE:
1. Ascertain the facts before you opine. Calling people names is not good as you might have discovered by now. Taga Guimbal is a lapdog and pretentious, the Garins are corrupt and oppressive and Dr. Gestosani is outright dumb. Can you buy that?
2. Do not make a conclusion out of a presumption. You will confuse everybody, including yourself.
3. You quoted the Ten Commandments and concluded I broke several of those; I quoted the Proverbs to show that you lack prudence and discernment. We are both pretentious then.
4. You equate common sense with intellect and education. That’s okay by me.
5. I do not have to get paid to “protect” another. Simply put, I do not expect to be paid to do what is right. It’s only among Catholics that one has to pay the priest for almost everything.
6. Your appreciation of Josefa and Veronica is a GOOD thing to do. I did not say it is the RIGHT thing to do.
7. Have you read St. Augustine of Hippo? His insights on how to know what you believe is right would be very relevant. I don’t believe in saints but I agree with his dissertation.
8. Learn.
“There is not one Christian rule for solicitors and another for saints. Their hearts are alike; and their way of salvation is along the same road.” George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950), Anglo-Irish playwright, critic
November 19th, 2009 04:21
Taga Guimbal,
There is no need to simplify. Instead of lecturing us of those barrowed proverbs you should read and analize your words too before making a conclusion. Josefa may not have the same education as you do but we have no right of acting sarcastic and to redicule someone because of their english. That was my point!
I don’t have any access to the tele novela. Where did you get such conclusion? I am so busy with work as a caregiver and on my days off I love visiting historical places and exploring the culinary aspect of Italy. You must visit Italy sometime in your life , there are so much to learn and see. It is also good in opening our minds wider.
Dr. Gestosani, the wines of Tuscany are the best don’t you think? Yummy, with a plate of antipasti to compliment with.
November 19th, 2009 04:31
A true gentleman does not declare himself to the world that he is. He waits till someone compliment him. A food for thought Taga Guimbal.
To Veronica and Dr. Gestosani , thank you.
November 19th, 2009 20:52
Taga Guimbal, I’m not only concerned about you and your alter-ego but I’m also worried that your problem is deeper than that. Your demeanor reflects more of Personality Disorder. So, I approached 3 Psychiatrists friends of mine to let them read and review your posts in Iloilo Views and form a composite analysis of you. And here are their assessments about you: They are unanimous that you have NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) mild with tendency to become severe (because of your sarcasm and violent tendency). A warning signs that you should not take it for granted. No self-denial now because it is serious, and you need medical help (psychotherapy may be). God Bless.
November 19th, 2009 21:05
To Rouan:
Thanks for being on the same page. Just allow me to use your comment as an example of my logic:
You said: “Walan’g ganyan sa States.”
My understanding is that there is nothing like this in America BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU ARE IN AMERICA.
Is my logic correct?
November 19th, 2009 21:09
Veronica:
You seem to be somebody who cannot readily grasp an explanation. Well, next time I’LL DRAW IT FOR YOU.
Don’t wander off too much. You’re most apt to lose your way.
November 19th, 2009 21:18
Josefa:
Wrong again. Let me REPEAT IT AGAIN FOR THE SECOND TIME: A gentleman is somebody who does not hurt another person’s feelings UNINTENTIONALLY.
Gets mo na? If not still, just turn the page. Try YouTube or something… Whatever.
November 19th, 2009 21:20
Jose:
I think we belong to the same profession. Or maybe we just share the same passion. Are you a kindergarten teacher too?
November 19th, 2009 21:36
Danny:
When a dude walks the walk and talks the talk, you know he’s cool. What’s uncool is when some wiseguy thinks he walks and talks when in fact he’s just damn trying.
The problem with false reasoning is that, according to Voltaire:
“Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
Anyway, thanks man. You’re not my fan though. You’re my equal. We see the same thing, you see? How can we be both different in that respect?
Take care, my man. Livestrong.
November 20th, 2009 07:41
Doc:
Thanks for the free medical advice.
Did these 3 shrinks also take a look at your posts? Did they die laughing? No? They’re still alive? Do you mean that for a shrink, it’s easier to spot narcissistic disorder than plain and simple stupidity? That proves my point: Common sense is not always common.
Heigel once said: It man’s consciousness that determines his existence.”
Then Marx said: “Heigel got it all wrong. It is man’s existence that determines his consciousness.” I think Marx is correct.
What do you think?
By the way, ask your shrink friends to give you a crash lesson on Jung’s introspection. It might help. If it doesn’t, learn from Rene Decartes: “I think, therefore, I am.” Also learn from me: “If merely feel and do not think therefore I am ___.”
“Rebellion without truth is like spring in a bleak, arid desert.” Kahlil Gibran
November 20th, 2009 10:24
Taga Guimbal:
It’s quite amazing that you figured me out to be a kindergarten teacher. This world can afford to have more kindergarten teachers. You’ll be amazed at the level of logical competence that kids have. Perhaps the reason is that kids tend to be more truthful since they act based on their needs, rather than their wants.
For example, a toddler cries if it is in pain. It howls because it needs attention to ease the pain. A grown-up’s world is too complex. Most often, a person cries because he is sad. Sometimes, he cries because he is happy. That is why, if a person cries out loud and howls… “Foul!”, it should be equated with the corresponding reason so that his message gets through.
One of the basic and perhaps the worst fallacy in argument is “argumentum ad hominem”. This form of argument partakes of attacking the person, rather than the issue at hand.
A more cerebral analysis of this thread would reveal that in the flow of arguments in this thread, the combatants tend to ATTACK your personality, rather than your arguments. I do not have to wander far in order to prove this point. A couple of posts above will justify this. It makes me want to cry. As to whether I feel like crying because I am sad at their demeanor, or I am bursting in laughter, I’ll just leave that to myself. I’m a grown-up and therefore, entitled to this complexity.
Finally, I once met a very wise man who told me, “Do not complicate your life. NEVER EXCHANGE WITS WITH AN UNARMED OPPONENT.”
November 20th, 2009 16:39
Veronica:
Let me DRAW it for you girl.
I. 1 + 1 = 2. It means you cannot have a correct conclusion if your premise is wrong. The math for a wrong premise is 1+ 0 = 1. It is not 1 + 0 = 2. Capish?
Another example would be your statement that: “you should read and analize your words too before making a conclusion.”
At my end, I point out the wrong statement and offer the better statement. That is 1+1=2
On your part, you show the “wrong” statement but you do not put forth the right statement. So, your logic (or math) is still 1+0=2.
Also your statement that “You must visit Italy sometime in your life , there are so much to learn and see.” presumes that I have not yet gone to Italy. How sure are you?
The correct statement should be “Have you come to Italy? If not, come visit at least once in your life There are so much to learn and see.” O, di ba? Isn’t that the better statement?
Once again, you have shown that you speak from your feelings and not from your intellect. You should try that sometimes.
Surgeon: “You need to have a brain transplant. You need to buy one.”
Patient: “Where do I buy?”
Surgeon: “I have three in my inventory but they’re gonna cost you.”
Patient: “How much?”
Surgeon: “This one belongs to Einstein. It costs $1 million. The next one belongs to Edison. It costs $2 million. The last one belongs to ______. It costs $10 million.”
Patient: “Why is the last one much more expensive than the other two?”
Surgeon: “It has never been used.”
November 20th, 2009 16:54
You hit it right Taga Guimbal. I am from the 4th district. I was merely thinking about the TV ad when I said “Walang ganyan sa States.”
Keep on. More power to you. And more brains to the others.
November 20th, 2009 17:28
Doc:
If I were in fact a nut case, I am optimistic. There’s hope for me. There’s medicine for the nut; there’s an asylum for the nut.
But stupidity is a hopeless case. There’s no medicine for stupidity, there’s no hospital for the stupid. What is the proper remedy for a stupidity?
Any suggestions?
November 21st, 2009 03:53
Taga Guimbal,
A gentleman knows how to say I am sorry if he offended someone even unintentionally. ” I am sorry if I offended you. It is not my intention”. That is what a genltleman would respond. Instead you gave more insult to injury.
A gentleman does not proclaimed himself to the world that he is a gentleman. Being a gentleman does not redicule people because of their grammar or spelling. Being a gentleman is more than your definition. Gets mo na? My suggestion is to google how to become a gentleman or get a social ethics instructor—– Whatever.
In computer ethics capitalizing the letters may mean shouting to the other person. My interpretation is you were. Pls. don’t shout at me next time.
November 21st, 2009 08:05
Josefa:
It was not my intention to shout at you. It was my intention to use capital letters just like I used capital letters in my reply to Rouan. (Please read that reply for proper reference)
Anyway, the use of capital letters was intended not to demean you but to make sure you do not miss the point because you appear to have been always missing the point.
You keep needling me on my “criticisms” on grammar when I have already categorically said I have no quarrel with that. My take is on people’s propensity to open their mouths and close their minds. You are therefore impliedly insisting that I lied.
Yet again, your latest post indicates that you always miss a note. I suggest you seek help to analyze why these two sentences cannot be reconciled (ergo, one is wrong)
I said: I am a gentleman. I do not hurt somebody’s feelings unintentionally.
You said: A gentleman knows how to say I am sorry if he offended someone even unintentionally.
Note: I wanted to use some capital letters for emphasis but there appears to be more than two sets of computer ethics so I just have to settle with this.
November 21st, 2009 08:25
Jose:
I am not a kindergarten teacher. It just turns out that I have a friend who is one. And I learned a lot from that GIRL. What she told was very very simple: When a child acts up, saying not so nice things and doing some nasty routine, do not readily conclude. Get into the heart of the matter (the truth). You will realize that there are a lot life’s truths coming from the mouth of babes.
As you might have already noticed, the difference between children and adults is that the former can be taught.
November 21st, 2009 08:55
I wish to thank Taga Guimbal for teaching me Mathematics and English. You are probably the most intellectual person in this blog with a brain like Einstein. But your attitude stinks. I would rather have a 10 pesos brain with a big heart.
Why are you so angry and nontolerant to those who does not speak your language? Have a sip of wine and relax. It will do you good. Now, give me a big smile.
Arrivederci
November 21st, 2009 14:11
My motto: Do not let your 1 peso brain the reason for not writting your views in this blog. At the end of the day a 100 million , 10 million pesos and a 1peso brain all will turn into dust.
Let us go back to the issue. I agree with congresswoman Garin in supporting the reproductive health bill. I believe that this bill will help resolve the poverty that mostly our children are enduring at present.
November 22nd, 2009 00:56
I am beginning to get this kindergartin teacher or taga guimbal.you got some kind of deep hatred to stupidity. And that makes you stupid as well.your trying to sound intellectually superior by attachments quoting known people in the past.
I am sure your kindergartin pupils will be amazed.
November 22nd, 2009 01:02
I am just confused. Who is a kindergartin teacher and you is tagaguimbal
One thing for sure, tagaguimbal hates Dr Gestosani.
November 22nd, 2009 20:47
Josefa:
That I can agree with. What I can’t agree is if I had $ 10 million brain. Amen.
November 22nd, 2009 20:53
Veronica:
Mind the lesson first. You can mind the manners later. As for one’s heart, just remember:
“Every one speaks well of his own heart, but no one dares speak well of his own mind.” François, Duc De La Rochefoucauld (1613-1680), French writer, moralist
November 22nd, 2009 21:00
Delia:
Is it not correct to hate stupidity? If I hate stupidity, does that mean I am also stupid? If I hate a corrupt government official like your pet peeve Ombudsman, does that mean I am also corrupt?
Read my posts. You will realize that I never called anybody stupid. What I said was that I hate their stupidity. If my “stupidity” is the same as I hope is yours, you will readily see the substance. Set aside the personalities and the issues are clear.
Your are wrong: I do not hate Dr. Gestosani. I’m just highlighting his lack of discernment.
November 22nd, 2009 21:07
Veronica:
I seem to have overlooked something. Here’s that belated smile.
November 24th, 2009 02:41
thats what I like about you TagaGuimbal, you know how to make things right for you.
Let me ask Dr. Gestosani, if he does not feel the heat of your hate towards his person.
Thats the reason why he spent precious retirement time to asked his colleagues about you.
You never called anybody stupid, but you are a very articulate writer that you made them one without saying directly as one.
This an example of your indirect intlerance to stupidity
blog 57 by you to :Josefa:
Wrong again. Let me REPEAT IT AGAIN FOR THE SECOND TIME: A gentleman is somebody who does not hurt another person’s feelings UNINTENTIONALLY.
Gets mo na? If not still, just turn the page. Try YouTube or something… Whatever.
Well, NPD what ever that means, Dr. Gestosani, is it dangerous ?
November 24th, 2009 03:00
by the way I dont hate corruption , I just hate the OMbudsmanwho you is corrupt. Corruption is just a word unless a person does it.
Logic might be flawed when hating stupid person means you are also stupid since as you know you can choose your friends but you cannot choose your genes. In stupidity mostly ther is no choice, but with corruption it is a choice.
Remember Verginia Santiago is not stupid, and she has a choice, and the choice was to get bribed and the rest is history and destruction of family lives and dreams of unsuspecting people.
November 24th, 2009 04:04
Taga Guimbal, your NPD (narcissistic personality disorders) shows up as deviations from normal in one the following:
(1) cognition — i.e., perception, thinking, and interpretation of oneself, other people, and events;
(2) affectivity — i.e., emotional responses (range, intensity, lability, appropriateness);
(3) interpersonal functions
(4) impulsivity.
This medical condition is far from being a nut-case, but you have to be careful because your demeanor now is making waves in Iloilo Views, and you are making more enemies than friends.
Veronica, enjoy Italy. I wonder why Italians are such a happy people? Because when I was there, they serve wine even at breakfast and we all drink. I believe you – Tuscany wines are the best! May be we should learn from the Italians and be happy.
Delia, thanks from your logic that stupidity comes from a person who has aberration to be stupid also. Iloilo Views needs people who speak more common sense.
Josefa, your honesty and integrity is beyond reproach. All Igbarasnon should be proud of you. Corrupt and abusive politicians should have no room in Government if more voters will follow your example. Just say no to the Garin Dynasty in Iloilo.
Greetings to Atty. Tiosayco “FROM GUIMBAL”.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL MY KASIMANWA.
November 24th, 2009 12:32
Delia:
It’s elementary: If one can’t stand the heat, he should get out of the kitchen.
You insist that I hate the person of Dr. Gestosani. I expect that such is your conclusion after you have read all my posts and after a mature and impartial analysis. I respect your view. In a democracy, you have the right to be wrong.
I also respect your logic.
November 24th, 2009 12:49
Doc:
I’ve never imagined that fans and critics are an issue in a question of what is right and wrong or what is true and false. As far as I understand, “right, “wrong”, “true” and “false” are what Immanuel Kant called the “categorical imperatives” and are, in essence, a priori and do not require some form of empirical affirmation. Apparently, friends and enemies are an issue to you. That explains your fascination with politics.
“The ignorant work for their own profit; the wise work for the welfare of the world.” – Bhagavad-Gita
November 24th, 2009 13:18
Delia:
It appears that I have discovered why we have divergent, and apparently, irreconcilable views. You do not hate corruption because it is nothing without the corrupt person. What you hate the corrupt person.
On my part, I hate stupidity without regard as to who the person may be.
I’m not sure which of these views is the better view. What I’m sure is we were all told, regardless of our religion, that we should hate sin and not the sinner.
Please don’t confuse stupidity with ignorance.
The modern English word “stupid” has a broad range of application, from being slow of mind (indicating a lack of intelligence, care or reason), dullness of feeling or sensation (torpidity, senseless, insensitivity), or lacking interest or point (vexing, exasperating)
The word “Ignorant” is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware. The term may be used specifically (e.g. “One can be an expert in math, and totally ignorant of history.”)
Hence, the person “not having any choice” is ignorant because he does not know. Ergo, one may have a PhD degree but is totally unaware of history, making him ignorant of history.
The stupid, before becoming one, had a choice but he did not exercise such choice intelligently. So, people usually say: “That was a stupid thing to do.” They don’t say: “Why did you do that? You are stupid.”
November 24th, 2009 14:29
Delia:
Did you notice I make several posts? The reason to avoid getting lost in transition. To recapitulate, these are your views that I respect:
1.”you got some kind of deep hatred to stupidity. And that makes you stupid as well.”
2.”your trying to sound intellectually superior by attachments quoting known people in the past.”
3.”thats what I like about you TagaGuimbal, you know how to make things right for you.”
4.”Let me ask Dr. Gestosani, if he does not feel the heat of your hate towards his person.”
5.”by the way I dont hate corruption”
6.”Logic might be flawed when hating stupid person means you are also stupid since as you know you can choose your friends but you cannot choose your genes.”
Again, these are your views that I respect. Maybe if you have other views in the future, I can agree.
“The enemy of good is better.” Voltaire
November 24th, 2009 14:55
Doc:
Your NPD (narcissistic personality disorders) shows up as deviations from normal in one the following:
(1) cognition — i.e., perception, thinking, and interpretation of oneself, other people, and events; (Ex: failure to recognize mistaken beliefs)
(2) affectivity — i.e., emotional responses (range, intensity, lability, appropriateness); (Ex: hating dissent and liking hollow praises)
(3) interpersonal functions (Ex: those who agree are good and those who don’t are bad)
(4) impulsivity. (Ex: making a conclusion out of a supposition)
This medical condition is far from being a nut-case, but you have to be careful because your demeanor now is making waves in Iloilo Views, and you are making more friends than real friends (the latter being duty-bound to affirm when you are right and give rebuke when you are wrong).
“Beware of the Greeks and the gifts they bring.”
November 24th, 2009 16:04
And the last words from this part of the web:
“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.” – Voltaire
“If you make people think they’re thinking, they’ll love you. If you really make them think they’ll hate you.” Donald Robert Perry
November 24th, 2009 16:19
Hahahahahaha naga wild na si Atty. Raul Tiosayco. Ang problema sa imo Raul kay daw langaw ikaw nga naka tongtong sa karbaw matyag mo karbaw man timo. In the end, langaw ka mangod ah! Hahahahahahaha
November 24th, 2009 17:26
My last wish. In my memory I wish to be remembered as a lady who had the courage in saying NO to the 500 pesos from the Garin’s team during the election. I wish this engrave in my tombstone.
The use of capital letter is not to demeanor you but to make sure you do not miss the point because you appear to have been missing the point. Analize your lines Tagaguimbal. This is just one of the example of your insult. Do you really think that I am stupid not to understand the sarcasm behind your lines? I have been very tolerant to your disgusting attitude towards me and this time it has to stop.
November 24th, 2009 17:28
I forgot to tell Taga Guimbal that his brain is not worth $10 million. It is worth nothing!
November 24th, 2009 17:34
Big brains, small brains , brainless who cares. What is important is courage to share your views regarding the reproductive health bill. Kinaray-a, hiligaynon, taglish, broken english, perfect english or kinamatis are all welcome.
November 25th, 2009 01:56
Our heart pumps blood to our body. Blood carries food to our cells. It is our brain that controls our emotion , thinking, movements , speech, behavior etc. This is a lesson for today folks.
Benjo, you are very funny—-haha ha aaah. Now, Taga Guimbal give me a big big smile or better give me a big laugh.
“Impossible na ang langaw ay magiging kalabaw kahit gusto pa niya” Veronica.
November 25th, 2009 04:01
To kill is a sin. It is just a phrase , I do not hate .But I hate killer when he kills close to you. So tagaguimbal ,you will also hate the sinner who kills, when he does it to you friends or family.
You will not hate sin but the sinner.
November 25th, 2009 04:03
Isn’t it hating very subjective ? So is corruption.
November 26th, 2009 07:07
Josefa:
You think that I think my brain is worth $ 10 million. That’s my point: You seem to always miss the point.
November 26th, 2009 07:54
Josefa:
What I understand from your posts is:
When I say “the use of capital letters was intended not to demean you but to make sure you do not miss the point because you appear to have been always missing the point.”, that is an insult.
But when you say: “Taga guimbal, I hope you are practicing your words in your daily living. It is very impressive but if it is all words and your action is the opposite then it is called hypocracy.”, that is okay.
Now, I see what you mean. I hope you see it too. I can’t agree with that logic, but I have to respect it.
My last post for you.
“He who does not know where he is going never gets lost.” Oscar Wilde
November 26th, 2009 08:14
BJ:
As you might have already discerned brain is not an indispensable requirement in this blog. But I agree with you: It only takes courage to air one’s views.
The detour was put in place since day 1. It started when a different opinion was made on an entirely different issue. And ever since, everybody took the dirt road and missed the highway. Thanks for straightening out things.
My reply to Dawn Zaldivar’s post needs a summary:
1. The parents must have a choice how to manage their own families and government must come up with legislation to institutionalize that choice.
2. The legislation must be based, not only on well established medical practices, but also the people’s right of choice and most of all, common sense.
3.While everyone in a democracy is entitled to his own opinion, it is the government which, at the end of the day, should make policies “for the greatest good of the greatest number.” (John Locke)
More power to you.
November 26th, 2009 23:08
Delia:
“Hate” and “like” are based on emotions. “Right” and “Wrong” are based on principles/ideas. “Good” and “bad” are based on utility or usefulness. I cannot see how these things can be interchangeably used.
Really, I cannot fathom what you mean. I think it’s best to let that be.
November 26th, 2009 23:12
Veronica:
I really don’t know what the big big smile and the big laugh is for but I’ll oblige. Here’s your big big smile and your big laugh.
November 26th, 2009 23:39
The senseless and savage massacre in Maguindanao were 57 people murdered because of political rivalry does not justify killing for the sake of winning the election and protect politicians’ turf in the government. Political dynasty should be examined closely in Philippine Politics because I think this is the root of all evils that is happening now in the Philippines.
As I said again (Taga Guimbal will dispute this again), that some politicians enter politics to make money and make that money works for them to stay in power, and this cycle repeats again every 3 years.
Some corrupt and abusive politicians will kill; some will declare political payback and make your life miserable; and some will hire attack dog to do dirty jobs for them while they wash thier hands and cry foul.. Only in the Philippines!
Let’s count our blessings and thank the lord. HAPPY THNKSGIVING TO ALL!
November 27th, 2009 05:58
Taga Guimbal,
I did not miss your point. I was confirming your statement that your brain is not worth 10 million—- it is because of your attitude mainly. You have a special talent in writting so pls. use that gifts wisely with a down to earth attitude. Pet Melliza is a good example.
In real world even those who knows were he is going get lost especially those with overflowing super egos.
Being respectful to one’s opinion is very good. Being articulate is exemplary but can backfire especially when the lines have demeaning undertone. Try considering human nature when you are blogging—- a word of wisdom from an old lady.
November 27th, 2009 06:22
Taga Guimbal,
You did not find Benjo’s comment funny? Where is your sense of humor? I think you need another sip of Tuscan wine. Now, let us laugh together, Ha—ha haaaaa.
November 27th, 2009 08:32
TagaGuimbal,
I read the comments since day 1. I understand why the detour. It is a normal process when humans interact and expressing each views passionately. Josefa has a good point. Her word of wisdom make sense in my opinion.
November 30th, 2009 07:40
Taga Guimbal scores again.
It’s not corruption, violence or poverty or overpopulation that ails our country: it is stupidity.
If the Ampatuans had just a pea of a brain, they would not do it.
December 1st, 2009 01:10
BJ:
This is what Josefa posted on day 1: “Taga guimbal, I hope you are practicing your words in your daily living. It is very impressive but if it is all words and your action is the opposite then it is called hypocracy.”
If you think that is a good point then, I respect that.
More power.
December 1st, 2009 01:14
Doc:
I disagreed with your statement: ““Politicians enter politics with one reason only:to make money and use that money to stay in power”
I agree with your statement:”some politicians enter politics to make money and make that money works for them to stay in power”
At last, we have agreed.
December 1st, 2009 01:35
Veronica:
I did not find “Benjo’s” comment funny because I did not find it in the first place. Don’t worry, I’ll look for it.
Sorry, I’m not into wine. I’m into water.
“My books are water; those of the great geniuses is wine. Everybody drinks water.” Mark Twain
December 1st, 2009 20:33
Taga Guimbal (AKA Atty. Raul Tiosayco), I admire your writing skill – very impressive and very articulate. But why do you always have to use those borrowed proverbs to prove your point? Keep it simple, and just use common sense, because we all speak common language (even kinaray-a as well).
I agree with BJ that all of us in this blog took the detour road because you (the driver) drove us there. Worse, you took us to the dirt road (you said this) and what a bumpy ride it was. We all blame it on you!
December 4th, 2009 16:55
Doc:
1. If you think I am a lawyer you have to guess again.
2. As far as see it, the detour started this way:
Pet Melliza on Reproductive Health Bill: Defy the Church
Dr. Antonio Gestosani on Reproductive Health Bill: My family suffered political oppression by the Garin Family in Guimbal for 25 years. I can forgive (as christian) but I won’t forget…. Thus, the detour.
3.I understand the blame-throwing. It’s human nature. It started right after Adam took a bite of the fruit of wisdom. To say that I expect not to be blamed is wrong. But then, to expect me to take the blame because people don’t like me, is not correct.
“One reason why we find so few men of reasonable and agreeable conversation is that there is scarcely anyone whose mind is not more intent upon what he himself has a mind to say than on making pertinent replies to what is being said to him.” François, Duc De La Rochefoucauld